tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post8548401066181346873..comments2024-01-27T00:27:45.851+00:00Comments on race/history/evolution notes: Bach a swarthoid?n/ahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02378473351485233448noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-72387647978472765562018-10-23T06:10:11.503+01:002018-10-23T06:10:11.503+01:00Quite comical to go back and read these older musi...Quite comical to go back and read these older musings in the ancient era before adna, especially the one cited in the OP. <br />"The hue of his skin remain shrouded in mystery"<br />Modern phenotypes were already fixed loooong before Bach. To be fair though, this particular tone isn't unknown to Europeans, especially those from the south who spend alot of time in the sun, but given what we know of Bach it's just asinine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-38921717759245686682017-05-01T08:26:01.128+01:002017-05-01T08:26:01.128+01:00I'll just note that this blogger deliberately ...I'll just note that this blogger deliberately washed out the portrait to make it look paler than it actually is. Just take a look at the photo on Wikipedia.<br /><br />I don't know anything about how Bach ought to have looked, but seriously, you talk about disingenuous science, and <i>this</i> is how you demonstrate honesty?<br /><br />Geez.reinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-1037301634553056162012-03-28T01:56:04.377+01:002012-03-28T01:56:04.377+01:00LOL @ this render. It's something Dienekes wou...LOL @ this render. It's something Dienekes would probably have come up with during a heavy night of drinking. Next up: "George Washington was a Swarthoid."JamesStealnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-37483150449956160692009-01-12T08:19:00.000+00:002009-01-12T08:19:00.000+00:00He looks European--what is all this crap argument ...He looks European--what is all this crap argument about?<BR/><BR/>Yes he may be tanned a little dark, but I wouldn't imagine that strange if I had met him. Many europeans are a tan color and or have the capacity to tan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-36990438785123124242009-01-12T08:13:00.000+00:002009-01-12T08:13:00.000+00:00{Implying that either Englishmen or Germans are a ...{Implying that either Englishmen or Germans are a mixture of non-Euroepan races does not match up to the facts, which is what was intended by the two commenters who posted}<BR/><BR/>No, the argument is wholly confined to Europe itself and all of its peculiar populations. Had Bach sprung from France like Debussy, this argument would be none.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-33333870694379845592009-01-12T07:58:00.000+00:002009-01-12T07:58:00.000+00:00Certainly not the only influence, but one more mod...Certainly not the <I>only</I> influence, but one more modern and certainly of name, the Roman Empire at it furthest perimeters impressed upon the entire continent of Europe and Britain its <B><I>seed</I></B>, to term vulgar if I may. Of which W.S. Churchill testifies to in vexation nearly amillenium after they had originally reached Britian's soil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-79551397339793110462009-01-12T07:41:00.000+00:002009-01-12T07:41:00.000+00:00To grab a finer thread of your quibble, The "comme...To grab a finer thread of your quibble, <BR/><BR/>The "commenters" both used the phrase "mud of races" to remind specifically that both Germany and Britain were always <I>composite</I> nations nominally until the modern era. Not to treat you to tedium in discussing in this post, both geographical entities of Germany and Britain have anthropological evidence to indicate of "southern influences". It isn't exactly uncommon in certain areas of both "geographical entities" to find a man of a complexion not to dissimilar to the one depicted in the Wilkinson rendering. Although it certainly isn't exactly <I>typical</I>, it certainly isn't <I>foreign</I> either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-46669887550281423632009-01-12T07:20:00.000+00:002009-01-12T07:20:00.000+00:00Marxist? If you read the post I used a quote from ...Marxist? <BR/><BR/>If you read the post I used a quote from Churchill whom in which stresses the very <B>fact of race</B>. Be careful in your declamation because you've already sloughed by labelling my words as marxist (which I am the farthest from being--would knock a 'brew if I could). What's unfortunate, and of which may just be that of what you're uninformed of--which in itself isn't wrong--is that "race" is awfully more complex than it seems you know it as. As perhaps introduction, take this quote from Churchill, <I>hit the book</I>, and only <I>then</I> can we continue from this thread apportioned equably in armament and having <I>casus belli</I>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-62149725634954503032009-01-12T06:21:00.000+00:002009-01-12T06:21:00.000+00:00"It would be helpful for yourself to read this "ci..."It would be helpful for yourself to read this "citation of a citation" before you remark on it"<BR/><BR/>I already read it, thanks.<BR/><BR/>Implying that either Englishmen or Germans are a mixture of non-Euroepan races does not match up to the facts, which is what was intended by the two commenters who posted.<BR/><BR/>"Please do not share your broad, common, and juvenille schema of the word "race". "<BR/><BR/>You have already shared your infantile Marxist conceptualization of it, so why can I not indulge the readership here in a dose of reality?<BR/><BR/>I have science and anthropology on my side. Who do you have on yours? Boas and Marx?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-34546576243352533132009-01-12T05:43:00.000+00:002009-01-12T05:43:00.000+00:00{"As one reply above said quite soundly, Germany w...{"As one reply above said quite soundly, Germany was quite a "mud of races"."<BR/><BR/>A statement not backed up by any type of genetic or anthropological evidence.}<BR/><BR/>It would be helpful for yourself to read this "citation of a citation" before you remark on it, which is the phrase "mud of races". It was a remark made by Daniel Defoe in his castigation of the Stuarts. All "Englishmen" for cetrtain, but <I>as certainly</I>, of divers origins. Here's an apt quote from W.S. Churchill:<BR/><BR/><I>"[I am] horribly entangled with the Ancient Britons, the Romans, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, all of whom I thought I had escaped for ever when I left school!"</I> 1938, 20 August (OB, CV5/3, 1123.) <BR/>--<B>quoted from "Churchill by Himself", Richard Langworth</B><BR/><BR/>Please do not share your broad, common, and juvenille schema of the word "race".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-15410271256431676662009-01-12T05:05:00.000+00:002009-01-12T05:05:00.000+00:00"As one reply above said quite soundly, Germany wa..."As one reply above said quite soundly, Germany was quite a "mud of races"."<BR/><BR/>A statement not backed up by any type of genetic or anthropological evidence.<BR/><BR/>The level of imbecility coming out of academia is quite amusing.<BR/><BR/>Thought I'd throw in the old "Beethoven was Black" link for fun:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/beethoven.htm" REL="nofollow">http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/beethoven.htm</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-79430622504326032132009-01-11T23:35:00.000+00:002009-01-11T23:35:00.000+00:00swarthoid-noun1. A member of a highly-pigmented su...swarthoid<BR/>-noun<BR/>1. A member of a highly-pigmented subrace or ethnic group; most typically a dark Caucasoid (e.g., a Southern European or Middle Easterner, as opposed to a Northern European).<BR/>2. Someone who physically resembles def. 1. <BR/><BR/>Origin:<BR/>2001-2003(?); SWARTH(Y) + -OID<BR/>Probably coined by someone on Skadi (or its predecessor) or the old SNPA list.<BR/><BR/>It's an amusing term, or maybe you had to be there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-6238604053955738112009-01-11T20:35:00.000+00:002009-01-11T20:35:00.000+00:00Swarthoid!?Swarthoid!?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-7214432850736984592009-01-10T00:01:00.000+00:002009-01-10T00:01:00.000+00:00I hope that was her. But more so, I hope you have ...I hope that was her. But more so, I hope you have a life outside of this cute little forum of evolutionist pseudo-science you have here. <BR/><BR/>I was directed here by a link in an email from a friend who thought it was a good laugh to share (Bach a Swarthoid?). I sure got mine. And so did many more. <BR/><BR/>Get out of your basement and get some air.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-25524562563811993022009-01-09T23:30:00.000+00:002009-01-09T23:30:00.000+00:00Dude/chick:These are some of the least convincing ...Dude/chick:<BR/><BR/>These are some of the least convincing sockpuppets I've ever seen.<BR/><BR/>That you seem to take this all so personally lends to my impression you are Wilkinson herself. Don't bother trying to create yet more personae to back yourself up -- you clearly suck at it.<BR/><BR/>My "racialist theories" don't stand on any particular individual having a particular eye color, but I'll take Besseler's opinion over that of a poorly-constructed internet sockpuppet any day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-16362485753036107882009-01-09T22:58:00.000+00:002009-01-09T22:58:00.000+00:00If I may add my two bits, The rendering of Wilkins...If I may add my two bits, <BR/><BR/>The rendering of Wilkinson's <I>does not</I> show decidedly brown eyes. In fact they show dark <B>grey</B> eyes. But that point is very much negligible. <BR/><BR/>As someone who was once actually involved in historical portrait appraisals, J.S. Bach's eyes are more commonly depicted as <B>brown</B> or a <B>dim grey</B> than any pair of baby blues. <BR/><BR/>Gosh, if you're trying shore up any of your bedside racialist theories, I recommend not poking much further about concerning composers in Germany--namely Mozart and Beethoven. As one reply above said quite soundly, Germany <I>was</I> quite a "mud of races".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-75094105584414878582009-01-09T22:30:00.000+00:002009-01-09T22:30:00.000+00:00This website is a bit of a laugh. Whoever is writi...This website is a bit of a laugh. Whoever is writing these articles ought have something better to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-25767792670482698782009-01-09T22:21:00.000+00:002009-01-09T22:21:00.000+00:00That reasoning is not at all convincing, nor does ...That reasoning is not at all convincing, nor does it say anything about the eye color, which Haussmann definitely fucked up in at least one or the other painting. Considering that every other portrait shows Bach with light or light-mixed eyes, the most parsimonious explanation is that H 48 is in error. One can think of any number of reasons C.P.E. might have kept a large portrait by a prominent artist, even with errors, while exchanging a small pastel by his cousin.<BR/><BR/>This is getting old. I will grant that reasonable people can disagree on the eye color, though I don't think "brown" falls into reasonable disagreement. Perhaps Wilkinson <I>could</I> have made that choice without intent to deceive, but it's interesting how <I>every</I> aspect of pigmentation appears to have been systematically darkened in the reconstruction. If you are Wilkinson, it's a bit late now to be starting your background research. You should have been able to justify each decision <I>before</I> releasing the "reconstruction". <BR/><BR/>And still no reasonable explanation for the dark "sun tan" on the 18th-century, central European composer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-19613801069193303032009-01-09T14:06:00.000+00:002009-01-09T14:06:00.000+00:00Herz rejected Besseler's criticism of H 48 which s...Herz rejected Besseler's criticism of H 48 which shows Bach with brown eyes.<BR/><BR/>If H 48 should be the copy once owned and treasured by Philipp Emanuel, which Besseler concedes to be more likely than not, then we must admit that, in spite of certain "corrections" deplored by Besseler, <B>a good likeness is presented here</B>. In fact it seemed so good to Philipp Emanuel that he willingly exchanged the small pastel, the least contestable picture among Besseler's "five genuine portraits," for a portrait of Johann Ludwig Bach, his Meiningen relative, whose picture his collection still lacked. Had<BR/>Philipp Emanuel felt that H 48 did not represent a true likeness of his father, how could he have parted with a superior Vkmena even if it was a small pastel? <B>Nothing speaks more convincingly for H 48 (HI. F) than the fact that Philipp Emanuel found the pastel picture (HL D) expendable.</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-40827226313668173682009-01-09T12:02:00.000+00:002009-01-09T12:02:00.000+00:00REVIEWS OF BOOKSG HERZ - The Musical Quarterly, 19...<I>REVIEWS OF BOOKS<BR/>G HERZ - The Musical Quarterly, 1957 - Oxford Univ Press<BR/>In addition to questioning the quality of Huassmann's portraits, Besseler makes the following two points which detract in his opinion from the trustworthiness of H 48. The color of the eyes, <B>grey-green on the restored version of H 46</B>, is changed to a dark brown on H 48, which contradicts the <B>blue-grey of the other Bach portraits he authenticated</B>.</I><BR/><BR/>Considering that paintings will tend to darken with age and the accumulation of grime, I'm inclined to believe the lighter readings. Moreover, "grey-brown" (light-mixed) doesn't justify the just-plain-brown eyes in Wilkinson's "reconstruction" -- much less the brown skin or black eyebrows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-91952779526257457702009-01-09T10:49:00.000+00:002009-01-09T10:49:00.000+00:00GERHARD HERZA "NEW" BACH PORTRAITMusical Quarterly...GERHARD HERZ<BR/>A "NEW" BACH PORTRAIT<BR/>Musical Quarterly, 1943; XXIX: 225 - 241. <BR/><BR/>Only one step remains to establish the authenticity of the<BR/>portrait. How does the outer appearance of the thirty-eight-yearold<BR/>Bach here depicted compare with that in his known authentic<BR/>portraits as an older man? There are but two principal types of<BR/>Bach likenesses among the recognized portraits—the "Haussmann<BR/>Type" and the 'Teters-Kiitner Type . The former is headed by<BR/>the original oil painting of 1746, which was copied by J. M. David<BR/>and several other artists. The "Peters-Kutner Type" is represented<BR/>by the Bach portrait of the Peters Music Library, Kiitner's<BR/>engraving of 1774, and copies made after them.<BR/><BR/><B>Both types show clearly the same grey-brown eyes</B>, strongly<BR/>arched, blond eye-brows, and a mighty, broad, somewhat slanting<BR/>forehead. They differ, however, in the shape of the nose,<BR/>which is less hooked in the Haussmann type.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-55197375393019281302009-01-09T06:13:00.000+00:002009-01-09T06:13:00.000+00:00The eyes appear light or light-mixed in the Haussm...The eyes appear light or light-mixed in the Haussmann portrait. I wouldn't try to be more precise than that with only digitized versions of unknown color accuracy to go on, especially considering that <B>according to every expert I'm aware of, portraits depict Bach with predominantly blue or blue-grey eyes</B>. "Blue" vs. "grey" is entirely irrelevant here: the issue is that Wilkinson has no justification for depicting Bach with brown eyes -- or a sun tan, whether she (you?) thinks it "looks good" or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-86548469273659240672009-01-09T04:46:00.000+00:002009-01-09T04:46:00.000+00:00Certainly weren't blue as I said. Brown or Grey, a...Certainly weren't blue as I said. Brown or Grey, and Grey they seem to be. Thanks for the higher resolution pic of the Haussmann-which is the only authenticated portrait. I'd recommend reviewing a graduated color chart to see if you can distinguish between certain colors. <BR/><BR/>And about the tan, what's wrong with it? Looks good to me. Wish I could sport one myself, but I tend to burn in the sun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-42412259261939752252009-01-09T04:20:00.000+00:002009-01-09T04:20:00.000+00:00Haussmann portrait at higher resolution<A HREF="http://b.cache.bachhaus.de/files/5/3/5/a3a4e9a783a6af057f14899010961/Bach_Haussmann_1746.jpg" REL="nofollow">Haussmann portrait at higher resolution</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-227780861638767023.post-77340911430729265242009-01-09T04:12:00.000+00:002009-01-09T04:12:00.000+00:00For too-stupid-to-read "Anonymous":Perhaps the bes...For too-stupid-to-read "Anonymous":<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps the best succinct explanation of the physiognomical factors that traditionally have had to be considered in the authentication process for a portrait alleged to be one of Johann Sebastian Bach is Gerhard Herz's summary in his Musical Quarterly review of Besseler's Fünf Echte Bildnisse:<BR/><BR/> "In the absence of historical documents and authenticated signatures, Besseler attempts his identification from anatomical and physiological traits. He reasons that in addition to such well known characteristics as Bach's protruding lower jaw or his double chin at least one other such sufficiently unusual peculiarity that distinguishes the composer's physiognomy ought to be found. In his search Besseler found..., along with the common <B>predominantly blue color of the eyes</B>, an unusual asymmetry of the eyes the nature of which he documents ably with the help of a scientifically usable copy of Bach's skull.</I><BR/><BR/>http://www.npj.com/thefaceofbach/QCL09.html<BR/><BR/>According to every expert I'm aware of, portraits depict Bach with predominantly blue or blue-grey eyes. Search Google Books and Google Scholar and stop wasting my time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com